Kurt Miller - Should the Northwest sacrifice power to save salmon?

A federal court order is forcing Northwest dams to spill more water for salmon protection, reducing hydropower generation and raising concerns about electricity reliability and costs. As energy demand rises, can the region afford to lose one of its largest sources of clean power?

Kurt Miller is chief executive officer of the Northwest Public Power Association. He joins the show to discuss the impact of the latest Columbia Basin spill order, growing concerns over grid reliability in the Pacific Northwest, and the debate over balancing salmon recovery efforts with affordable and dependable electricity.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome back to the Lars Larson Show. It's a Monday. It's the Radio Northwest Network, and it's my pleasure to be with you. I'll be glad to get to your phone calls and emails shortly at 866-ALRS. That's 866-439-5277. Send your emails to talk at LarsLarson.com. One of the issues that I've brought up time and time and time again over the last decade or so is that the region, the Pacific Northwest, is going to be critically short of electricity. The region's own measurements suggest that, because for a long time they tried to keep a number called loss of load probability under 5 percent, and they usually kept around 2 or 3 percent. Now they're suggesting that the likelihood of loss of load probability or possibility has now climbed and will continue climbing for the next several years, and it is very, very high at this point. And on top of that, a Federal judge just ordered the Pacific Northwest to waste $100 million worth of clean hydropower by simply spilling water. And I thought we'd talk to Kurt Miller about it, who has written about it extensively. Kurt is the Chief Executive Officer of the Northwest Public Power Association. Welcome back to the program.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Hey Lars, thank you so much. It's nice to be here. And I do want to say a special thank you to you for keeping this on the public's radar. You know, the uh when you use terms like loss of load probability, a lot of people's eyes will gloss over, you know, uh, because it's it's technical. And uh but the the point is what we're really talking about is the possibility of California style, Texas-style blackouts happening here in the greater Pacific Northwest. And um and we're having both regional and national organizations now who are watchdog groups on grid reliability saying, hey, you know, it doesn't look good. And I think that's exactly what you're talking about. But again, it's it can be so obscure that people don't know. And so much appreciation to you for for keeping this um this issue going.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

No problem at all, Curtin. In fact, I don't mind. I've been a nerd my entire life, so I kind of like terms like terms like lost L O L P because people say, What's that? It says one way or another, we won't have enough juice to feed the grid. And that means folks in Seattle and Portland, the political power structure, will get to say, who should we black out? Should we black out downtown Seattle or downtown Portland, or should we black out a bunch of rural people that the governors of Oregon and Washington don't give a damn about? I suspect I know which one is going to be the victim. But this is even weirder still. We have a system that's run by professionals, you're part of that, Northwest Public Power, you've got Bonneville Power Administration, I'm not as impressed with them. And a federal judge comes in and orders BPA or other agencies to simply spill $100 million worth of power-generating water?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Yes. And you know, the shocking thing about this, though, it's all done, you know, presumably in the name of salmon. And I think we all agree salmon are very, very important to this region. And so there's no argument that we want to help salmon. But even the plaintiffs, I got to listen in um, I think it was in January or February when they brought this uh motion for injunctive relief before the judge, Judge Um, Judge Simon in Portland uh in the Oregon District Court. And he specifically asked the plaintiff's attorney, uh, we're gonna spill more water. That means water going over the dam instead of going past hydropower turbines and powering those turbines. And he's like, we're gonna spill more water. And he asked the plaintiff's attorney, what benefit should we expect to see for salmon? And she literally could not answer the question. She uh she absolutely stammered for a minute and then she's like, Well, I can't really answer that. And so you have a judge who, despite the plaintiffs not even being able to say if this will help a single salmon uh going forward because of political leanings or whatever it is, right? Uh, and ordering uh the spill, which could uh the the really big, the really big moment is gonna come in the summers because he's ordering spill to happen throughout all of August and some of September. And this is something there are basically no juvenile salmon in the river at that time to actually benefit from the spill. So, like, you know, if a tree falls in a forest and no one's there to hear it, did it fall? Or is there a sound, right? It's the same thing for salmon. It's like, why are we spilling when there are almost no salmon in the river at that time, juvenile salmon that would quote unquote benefit from that operation?

SPEAKER_00 4:31

It it is shocking. By the way, Kurt, it may be impolitic for you to mention it, but I'm gonna mention it. Judge Simon of the Federal District Court that made this decision is married to, and I assume sleeps with a Democrat member of Congress named Suzanne Bonomici. They may have maintained their own uh names from before marriage because you didn't want to see that kind of connection. Oh, so you've got a hardcore Democrat federal judge. Well, they're really not partisan, but this one sleeps with a Democrat, so maybe that guides some of his decisions. As I said, not politic for you to say it, but I'll say it anyway. The second thing, and you kind of you went past the. Well, let me let me interject this really quickly if I could.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

And I, you know, I and you're right, I'm not gonna talk about that because you know that's their business. But I will say this the the place where politics really comes into it is that the is the governor of the state of Oregon, uh, Governor Kotec and the governor of the state of Washington, uh Bob Ferguson, they have both supported this litigation against essentially their own citizens, right? Against their own residents. They are the ones who are driving this litigation forward. And uh about one-third of Oregon electric customers are served by public power. So basically, this is an attack on that one-third of Oregon residents and about two-thirds of Washington residents, same thing. So, you know, the I this is the part that's most frustrating to me, the politics of these governors who are not doing what's in the interests of their of their constituencies. And, you know, getting rid of these dams or spilling more water across these dams, it does not even have a popular mandate. You know, it is a very small group of people who would like to see these things happen. And and that to me is politics at its worst, where you're you're placating a vocal group, a vocal group that uh does not represent the majority, and somehow it's all hidden from the public. And I think that's I think that's the disturbing part.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Well, Ms. I'm talking to Kurt Miller from the Northwest Public Power Association, and that way it reminds me of when mobs of a couple of thousand people show up in the streets of Seattle and Portland and say, defund the police, and I wonder, does the rest of the city agree with defunding the police? I don't think so. But who do they listen to? Do they listen to the majority of residents or do they listen to a couple of thousand people who are very vocal in the streets? Last issue, and that is this uh while we've got time, they're taking this power, as you said, at a time when it's unlikely to benefit a single fish in August and September. But when you would argue perhaps the region needs that electricity the most.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Oh, yes, yeah. I mean, there's two play there's two times of the year when we need electricity. We need electricity when it's cold in the winter, and we really need electricity when it's hot in the summer, when we really, really need it, when we when when lives are at risk, right? And so by getting rid of water, and it's a significant amount, in August, we're talking about basically a thousand megawatts. That's about the same size as a large nuclear power plant. It is probably it's on average more than the city of Portland would use, the you know, the residents of the city of Portland would use on average throughout the course of a year. So uh, you know, a thousand megawatts is a very significant number. We're gonna lose that right off the top. So if you have a period where it's really hot across the entire Western United States, um, you are going, you are really you're getting you're playing with fire.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Absolutely right. And we could lose that power this summer. That is Kurt Miller, and we appreciate Mr. Miller coming on, Chief Executive Officer of the Northwest Public Power Association. Back in a moment. You've got the Radio Northwest Network.