Nathan Proctor - Should Amazon be allowed to abandon devices that still work?

Millions of consumers own older devices that still function perfectly, yet manufacturers increasingly end support and force users onto newer products. When does a software update become a forced upgrade?

Nathan Proctor is Senior Director of the Campaign for the Right to Repair at PIRG. He joins the show to discuss Amazon's decision to cut off Kindle Store access for older Kindle devices, the growing right-to-repair movement, and whether technology companies should be allowed to discontinue support for products that consumers still use every day.

Transcript

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Welcome back to the Lars Larson Show. I always like to uh describe or to disclose the fact that I may have a dog in the fight, and in this case I do. I like physical books, but I also use a lot of online books. Do I have a Kindle? I do. Uh do I read off my Android device? I do. Uh do I get books from uh Kindle and also from Amazon and other places that are electronic books? I do. But imagine this: your Kindle will still turn on, but then Amazon has decided to cut it off. Is it a tech upgrade or a forced shakedown? I wanted to talk about that with Nathan Proctor, who is Senior Director of the Campaign for the Right to Repair at PIRG, uh the public interest research group. Nathan, welcome to the program. Great to be on. So what's happened to these 13 older Kindle models that still physically function, but they can't connect to the Kindle store or buy or download new books? What what what's happened and what is Amazon trying to do? Yeah, I mean, basically Amazon flipped switch and software, and now 13 Kindle models will no longer be able to check out new books, buy new books, uh use the kind of connected apps that you know like uh like you get books from the library, and so they're you know, they can still read the books that were still on them before May 20th, but then they will not be able to do anything. Now, why is Amazon taking that action? Well, they say uh, and I quote that that you know technology has advanced a lot. Um, I'm not sure that the books are all that different than they were. Um, but truth is this happens to a lot of devices kind of all the time. Now that we've got these internet-connected software-dependent devices, manufacturers kind of can do whatever they want at any point in the life of those products to deactivate them. Um it's kind of the Wild West out there in terms of property rights in this digital age. Nate, then you want to tell my audience where to find your site because I don't want to go past that opportunity. I want them to be able to read on their own what you've written and what you've posted as I have. Yeah, it's at pergpirg.org, um, and you can find my content there. Um but yeah, I mean, my job is to fight for your digital rights um in in this new kind of software-powered economy. Well, I guess one of the things I'd I'd observe is that if if I were an electronics manufacturer, I might say, we don't want to provide support for this device anymore. They're free to do that. But to then to say you bought a device and back when you bought it, you thought if I buy this device and I take good care of it, it might last for a long, long time. And then at some point they say, we're not even gonna let you use the device for anything other than what's already on the device, downloaded on the device. I I guess I'm trying to figure out what Amazon's concern is. I mean, if they're concerned that consumers are going to come to them and say, hey, my device, my Kindle doesn't work, fix it, or give me an upgrade, they can say we no longer support that device. And they're entitled to do that. But are they entitled to turn it off? Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's a great question. And the the thing I would argue is, right, you know, we own the physical hardware. Right. But yet the there it's controlled by the software that that runs on it. Why are we not allowed to put alternative software on these things? Why is it so difficult, right? And there are people who can, you know, put alternative software on these old Kindles, and there's guys like that. What do they do? Do they load them up with Linux or what? I mean, they essentially write their own software that people can put on them, but it's kind of legally dubious, right? Because the manufacturers have these protections in copyright law which say doing what you want with the property that you have can be a violation of the manufacturer's rights, which is why I really do do think we need to really hone in on uh restoring property rights um that protect the consumer in an increasingly internet-connected software-powered world. I mean, Dave, then am I wrong to see it through, say, a metaphor about automobiles? Because if I buy an automobile and then at some point they say it's no longer under warranty, okay, I don't have to worry about voiding that, am I then allowed to take that automobile and make whatever changes I want to make to the automobile? I guess there might be some that the state licensing folks would have a tough time with. But if I say I want to modify the engine, I want to modify all these other things, I'm allowed to do that. That's the traditional way that people have been able to take anything that they bought outright and say, I have a right to change this. Now the company could say we own the software and we only license it to you, but the physical device ought to be yours to do with as you like, shouldn't it? Yeah, I mean, I I think that's exactly right, right? Where we have a situation where we've kind of granted the manufacturers a kind of monopoly over the software that we allow to use in these products. And, you know, your example of cars, you know, cars last a really long time. And in fact, you know, you can look out the window and you could see a Saab or you can see a Saturn drive by. You know, those companies are out of business. Now, when a car company goes out of business, um, like Fisker, which made electric vehicles, like the cars can stop working because they have remote support that is required to operate those cars. So what is your like what you spend $100,000 on a on a vehicle, but it requires some remote support. Like, what are your rights when that company, you know, makes a series of bad economic decisions and and can't support that car anymore? I you know, I think we're on the very front edge of kind of what does it mean and how can consumers be protected in this world? And and you know, obviously you want to balance manufacturing manufacturers, shouldn't have to just perform services for these products forever without any kind of remuneration, but at the same time, you know, you physically own the hardware and you should have control over what it does, you know, within the bounds of the law. You know, it you're obviously not making modifications to that thing that make it dangerous or violate another law, but the extent that you're doing lawful things with it, it's your product and you should be allowed to do that. Well, in fact, it it also locks out the idea, Nathan, if unless I'm wrong about this, that if somebody came in and said, look, we're going to be the third-party provider of electronic support for all these devices that the manufacturer of the devices has now effectively abandoned, you wouldn't be able to do that, would you, even if you found that as an attractive marketplace. We will keep your Kindle operating for you for uh, you know, ten bucks a month or something. Yeah, I mean that would potentially violate section 1201 of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which is a law which says breaking a digital lock, even if it's for a non-illegal purpose of just maintaining something that you own, can be a copyright violation against the manufacturer. So we've really tilted the deck to favor manufacturers and prevent you know companies from entering the market and offering alternative software without kind of you know the risk of litigation from the from the big um you know companies that they're trying to compete with. And Nathan, I still love physical books, but if I had a physical book, it's it's a copyright product. If one day somehow the dog gets to tour the pages and choose them out, but I have a friend who has a copy, so I go make a copy of his two pages and slide them into mine. Have I have I modified the or violated the copyright on the book? Because I choose to be. You know, there's a specific law this this was litigated in court, and you have the right to repair that book, including making a copy of part of the book in order to repair the copy that you have. I mean, this has been this is established copyright law. Unbelievable. That is Nathan Proctor. We'll have Nathan back another day, but Nathan is senior director at the campaign for the right to repair at the public interest research group. That's P R P I R G dot or G. You got the Laris Larson show.